Comments on: Why the vice-versa test isn’t enough http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/why-the-vice-versa-test-isnt-enough/ Actually, THIS is what she said Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:14:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: judgesnineteen http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/why-the-vice-versa-test-isnt-enough/#comment-169 judgesnineteen Wed, 07 May 2008 16:30:25 +0000 http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-169 Hey, I'm glad you liked it and think it'll help. That is a really annoying argument about Cosmo. I feel like this kind of applies, but the women in Cosmo aren't saying "hey, you can't objectify us", the way a lot of black people who reclaim the n word say white people can't start using it. So yeah...I've always just said that women can be sexist too, and that doesn't make sexism right. I also see women who do stuff like that as trying to do the best they can for themselves inside patriarchy, as opposed to feminists, who are trying to step outside of patriarchy. Since fighting patriarchy doesn't guarantee you your rights, because it hasn't been beaten yet, sometimes it's rational to play along with patriarchy and be the woman it wants you to be so you can at least make money, be popular, etc. I don't mean to present those as shallow things, they're very important. So the fact that some women do this doesn't disprove the idea that patriarchy exists and that women would be better off if it didn't exist. And if women would be better off with patriarchy not existing, then men who play into patriarchy are helping oppress them. I don't know if that really addresses what you said, I'm kind of just thinking. Hey, I’m glad you liked it and think it’ll help. That is a really annoying argument about Cosmo. I feel like this kind of applies, but the women in Cosmo aren’t saying “hey, you can’t objectify us”, the way a lot of black people who reclaim the n word say white people can’t start using it. So yeah…I’ve always just said that women can be sexist too, and that doesn’t make sexism right. I also see women who do stuff like that as trying to do the best they can for themselves inside patriarchy, as opposed to feminists, who are trying to step outside of patriarchy. Since fighting patriarchy doesn’t guarantee you your rights, because it hasn’t been beaten yet, sometimes it’s rational to play along with patriarchy and be the woman it wants you to be so you can at least make money, be popular, etc. I don’t mean to present those as shallow things, they’re very important. So the fact that some women do this doesn’t disprove the idea that patriarchy exists and that women would be better off if it didn’t exist. And if women would be better off with patriarchy not existing, then men who play into patriarchy are helping oppress them. I don’t know if that really addresses what you said, I’m kind of just thinking.

]]> By: la pobre habladora http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/why-the-vice-versa-test-isnt-enough/#comment-168 la pobre habladora Wed, 07 May 2008 16:10:17 +0000 http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-168 Hey, this is the best break down of the 'but they do it too' logic I've seen. I'll have to remember this as a place to send the oblivious when I run across them. Don't worry, I'll try not to swamp you with any real trolls. A closely related difficult concept to get across though is 'just because there are minorities out there that are disparaging of their own group doesn't mean that it's okay for you to join in.' I had a coworker tell me that I couldn't complain about images of femininity presented in Cosmo because it is written by women. He went on to inform me that because women objectified women, everyone could. Hey, this is the best break down of the ‘but they do it too’ logic I’ve seen. I’ll have to remember this as a place to send the oblivious when I run across them. Don’t worry, I’ll try not to swamp you with any real trolls.

A closely related difficult concept to get across though is ‘just because there are minorities out there that are disparaging of their own group doesn’t mean that it’s okay for you to join in.’ I had a coworker tell me that I couldn’t complain about images of femininity presented in Cosmo because it is written by women. He went on to inform me that because women objectified women, everyone could.

]]> By: judgesnineteen http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/why-the-vice-versa-test-isnt-enough/#comment-167 judgesnineteen Wed, 07 May 2008 14:53:44 +0000 http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-167 Thanks Dave! And good point. Thanks Dave! And good point.

]]> By: Dave http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/why-the-vice-versa-test-isnt-enough/#comment-166 Dave Wed, 07 May 2008 14:12:45 +0000 http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-166 Very insightful. I like the logical train of thought--the basic dilemma of "no, it's not the same when you do it" is tough to comprehend, and tough to verbalize, but these are excellent examples. I'd like to note that this *is* a hard concept--so it's not unusual to have to explain this several times to someone. Even intelligent people, even liberals, even feminists. Sometimes, it's just not the same. Power and history matter. Very insightful. I like the logical train of thought–the basic dilemma of “no, it’s not the same when you do it” is tough to comprehend, and tough to verbalize, but these are excellent examples.

I’d like to note that this *is* a hard concept–so it’s not unusual to have to explain this several times to someone. Even intelligent people, even liberals, even feminists. Sometimes, it’s just not the same. Power and history matter.

]]> By: Lyndsay http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/why-the-vice-versa-test-isnt-enough/#comment-165 Lyndsay Wed, 07 May 2008 10:26:09 +0000 http://girlythoughts.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-165 Ha, my high school philosophy teacher kind of tried to explain this to us. How the people with less power can joke about the people with more power and it's acceptable because they don't have as much power and that joking is the way they have of trying to bring the people in power lower. While if the people in power joke about the others, that's just mean because they have no reason to. Something like that. Great teacher. Ha, my high school philosophy teacher kind of tried to explain this to us. How the people with less power can joke about the people with more power and it’s acceptable because they don’t have as much power and that joking is the way they have of trying to bring the people in power lower. While if the people in power joke about the others, that’s just mean because they have no reason to. Something like that. Great teacher.

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